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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me Gayatri
in the late 1970s Britain was in deep
political and economic crisis a class
struggle was raging a Labour government
clinging to power or a sergeant right
led by Margaret Thatcher grasping for
that power not to just shake it but to
break the Kaleidoscope things the
British never dared think like the
possibility of a military coup led by
the Queen zanko Mountbatten or the state
waging covert war against the citizenry
appeared on the agenda and on the
streets the now noble Lord Dobbs then
plane Michael a functionary of Margaret
Thatcher was at the heart of things when
it was over and Dobbs discarded by the
Iron Lady
he wrote the house of cards a bleak but
all too plausible novel about the dark
places in British politics it was a
great success
especially when turned into a BBC
classic TV series the series then
crossed the Atlantic for a US version
released by Netflix which was though it
hardly seemed possible even darker and
more brilliant than the original earning
Golden Globes and Emmys by the Dozen and
for Lord Dobbs more plaudits and those
an English gentleman he couldn't
possibly comment more millions of pounds
than he could ever have dreamt of when
he first put pen to paper all those
years ago earlier in Parliament I caught
up with the author Lord Dobbs more than
25 years ago you wrote the novel house
of cards it has become just a phenomenal
success both as a book and as a
television series in Britain now in the
United States you must be very proud of
it it must be a great achievement I'm
not sure I'm very proud of it in the
sense I'm not quite sure how much I
deserve all of this was the claim but
I'm desperately glad and happy with it I
mean it's changed my life it changed my
life 25 years ago when I started writing
it as a
cleat accident it was the first thing I
never written and I only wrote it on
holiday as a almost as a result of a pet
and Minh didn't even know that I would
finish it let alone get it published
yet it's changed my life and is still
changing my life to this day and all for
the better so not proud but actually
really pleased to be associated with it
mrs. Thatcher of course was your
employer to what extent does this
darkness at the heart of house of cards
and it's successors and it is very dark
in places come from your real-life
experience
in British politics ooh a huge amount of
it I mean you'll remember those days
just before Maggie Thatcher got into
power in 1979 we had a Labour government
that was teetering on the brink week
after week night after night it was
surviving by majorities of one or two
big ideological battles and politics in
those days much more so than they are in
this country today and people were
willing to risk everything to win those
battles even their lives I mean we know
that there are MPs who got from out of
their sick beds and came to Parliament
in order to vote and risk their lives in
doing so and some of them actually gave
their lives and it was commitment on
both sides for what they believed in and
I've always been a bit of a bit of a
sucker for that you know politicians who
actually believe in something and so
because it was it was a form of warfare
yeah there were all sorts of dark bits
going on tricks being played and I keep
saying that 90% of what went into house
of cards I had witnessed or been part of
but not in the same week or from the
same person but it politics is a rough
and tough business and that's what the
book tried to reflect nobody was killed
I'm assuming I don't know the statute of
limitations but I don't want to
incriminate yourself in any anyone being
tossed off the roof of this building
although I did encourage John Major when
he was having a very tough time with the
to start holding his press conferences
on the roof yes the bastard who made his
life misery they could have been tossed
over there like like Matty so the spring
for this magnificent achievement as I
described it is your real life
experience in British politics I found
as a parliamentarian now for more than a
quarter of a century myself I found the
house of cards as you put eighteen
ninety percent absolutely in touch with
what actually goes on here a bit of
exaggeration bit of journalistic poetic
license when it transferred across the
Atlantic I didn't think it was possible
for the story to get darker but it has
house of cards us which has launched
with a great fanfare this week and has
won all these Golden Globes and Emmys
and so on the US Edition is darker than
the British is that you think are a
proper reflection of the relative
darkness between the two places I think
the first thing that's important is that
it does transfer and can transfer
because it's not about it's not about
politics it's simply about people in
politics great drama is not based around
the minutiae of this policy or that
policy
it's based about that the passions and
the vulnerabilities and the courage and
the frailties of people in politics and
its character that makes great drama and
this Westminster Washington they are
some of the greatest back cloths you
could possibly have the great drama the
American that say in much the same way
as the end of the Thatcher era was a
wonderful time for some rather cynical
tongue-in-cheek political dramas house
of cards was now is a very good time for
this sort of approach in in Washington
because people are crying out for
something different it's all very well
having people who like that President
Obama who wants to be good and do great
things but actually at the end of the
day that in itself is not enough when we
watched in more innocent days
more backward days when we watched house
of cards we have to wait Sunday night I
think it was were to wait for each
Sunday night to see what happened next
then we could buy box sets of DVDs which
is how I watched the American first
American series but the method that's
been chosen of Netflix who releases
everything at one go
thus for obsessives like me
I'll watch I'm sure the entire series
over one weekend and I can do it by
subscribing to Netflix I know you won't
have been involved in Nestle in the
minutiae of the platforms that are being
used but does it seem to you that that's
the the shape of things to come the mass
release complete release of our whole
series it was one of the hugely exciting
parts of this for me I mean when they
came and said we want to buy the rights
from you it's you're selling your house
effectively but when they said that
we're going to put Kevin Spacey and
David Fincher in there I thought this
you know I don't need to think about
this and then to be part of what is
really a television revolution Netflix
came out of the the industry that was
renting out DVDs and things like that
knew that that was not going to be
enough to make it happen they decided to
put a lot of money into original program
cramming their programming and released
it on the internet and gambling gambling
their careers individual careers but
gambling littering billions of dollars
because there are many people involved
in in this that this is going to be the
way ahead this is the way that people
will want to watch their television in
years to come and they chose house of
cards to be the the cutting edge of this
is the first thing they had done as
original programming and it's had an
extraordinary effect we still have to
see whether that revolution is really
going to take hold I think it will but
and the stock market believes it will
Netflix share price in the last year
since they issued the first series of
house of cards has more than tripled I
hope you had some sure you know they've
they the rough figures are that a year
ago they had 30 million
subscribers now they've got 40 million
subscribers another 10 million
subscribers and they are just starting I
mean the business plan seems to be
extraordinary so it's not only fantastic
drama and what they have produced and I
think is just brilliant
I think this long form of television is
going to in the end supplant even movies
I don't mean to say that movies are
gonna close down but the depth of
characterization that you can achieve
over a long TV series if you're
releasing it especially through Netflix
and one go is far greater than you'll
get in one 90 minute or 110 minute movie
and it interested me in Hollywood now
the buzz is all about television series
I mean home lad The Sopranos had the
wire you have had homeland Breaking Bad
and things like very clear and indeed
even Downton don't ennoble
and and you're absolutely right and to
combine that time that concentration on
developing characters which is really
what makes drama work and also providing
it at the same time so you don't have to
artificially break everything up hour
after hour after hour and leave create
an artificial climax at the end of one
episode hoping that you can remember the
viewer will remember it in a week's time
you don't need to do that so it's
liberating creatively to Lord Dobbs
thank you very much indeed
Georgia you're Sputnik thank you coming
up after the break the best foreign
secretary britain never had and again a
man who served a prime minister in
number 10 Downing Street we'll be right
back
welcome back to Sputnik the right
honourable Sir Gerald Kaufman PC MP has
been in Parliament nearly 50 years but
before that was a brilliant journalist
and an assistant in Downing Street to
the Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson
if fleeber hadn't been out of power so
long he would have been foreign
secretary and what a difference to the
world that would have made Gerald
Kaufman's relatives were murdered in the
Holocaust and he grew up an ardent
supporter of the State of Israel now he
is the clearest most authoritative voice
against the crimes committed by that
state and for justice for their victims
last week in Parliament he said it was
time for international sanctions against
Israel and spoke of the sea of misery in
the Gaza Strip it's a privilege to have
him with us on the sputnik today so
Gerald your speeches always travel far
they have such authority and such
clarity but none more than the speech
you made on Gaza last week you're no
stranger to Gaza you've seen firsthand
that sea of misery tell our viewers
about it I led a delegation of 60
parliamentarians from 13 European
Parliament's to Gaza not long ago it was
a year after the attack by the Israelis
which failed as all Israeli attacks now
do though with huge loss of life called
Operation Cast Lead a year afterwards
the smoke from the white phosphorus
bombardment by Israel was still fuming
away people say rightly that the Syrians
use chemical weapons
nobody condemns the Israelis for using
chemical weapons well I do the massive
military destruction is of course
compounded by the economic misery
the blockade means that no meaningful
economic activity
can take place there the tunnels through
which some means of life were passing
have been destroyed on the Egyptian side
and I think you are describing in
Parliament the condition of life of
those Palestinians who have survived
these military attacks tell us scarcely
any food is allowed to be brought in so
everybody but particularly the young
people and the children are
undernourished which have affects them
so much that it will go on to future
generations they have hardly any fresh
water just for a few hours every five
days so they're diseased in that way
they have no fuel of their own which
means apart from anything else that a
great deal of the transport now is by
horse or donkey there's hardly any
electric electrical power indeed on a
recent summer because there wasn't
enough electricity for air-conditioning
in nearby tel-aviv they cut off the
electricity in the Gaza Strip and Qatar
had to intervene and see what it could
do which wasn't enough no building
materials are brought in so that the
schools that the Israelis destroyed in
some cases with children in them cannot
be rebuilt medical facilities are at
their minimum if any other country on
earth was doing what the Israelis have
been doing to 1.7 million Palestinians
in Gaza there will be United Nations
resolutions there will be calls for an
intervention there will be sanctions but
the Israelis literally get away with
murder I'll come back to sanctions in a
minute now you're Jewish your family
suffered some perished in the Holocaust
the
greatest of all crimes which took place
in the 20th century perhaps the greatest
of all crimes ever and you grew up a
supporter of the State of Israel what
changed your mind
as you say George I grew up a support of
the State of Israel I I was brought up
as a Zionist I went to Israel again and
again and again on holiday
I had family there I had friends there
but as I traveled around because it's a
small area I would see not just Israelis
in Israel living in huge comfort
subsidized by the Americans I would see
settlers in the illegal settlements
living in huge comfort and minutes away
I will go to a Palestinian Township or
village and see sewage flowing through
the streets and if you have any sense of
justice at all and as a Jewish child I
was brought up with a sense of justice
the disparity is unacceptable and it's
got worse it's got worse and worse and
worse the whole time and the Israelis
live in comfort I've gone through Tel
Aviv and see them sitting at their
pavement cafes complacently enjoying
themselves while hardly any distance
away the gap people in the Gaza Strip
are living in total misery but don't
let's forget the people on the West Bank
they're living in misery as well now of
course it is routine for Israeli
propagandists to pray in aid the
suffering of the Jewish people in the
Holocaust you reject that as a cover
don't you I reject it with utter
contempt and anger
most of my parents families because my
parents came here as refugees
most of my parents families were
murdered in the Holocaust when the
Germans came to the town from which my
mother came in Poland stash off they
lined up all the Jews - marched the
railway station to be put in cattle
wagons but for those who were not well
enough to March they killed them on the
spot and they killed my grandmother who
was ill in bed by shooting her in her
bed my grandmother did not die to
provide cover for Israelis murdering
Palestinian grandmothers well it's hard
to put it any more powerfully than than
that let's turn to what can be done
about it there is of course a civil
movement of boycott and fight for
divestment and even individual sanction
but you went further in your speech in
Parliament last week you say it's time
for international official governmental
sanctions against Israel how would that
work the Israelis have a very high first
world standard of living that standard
living depends partly on huge financial
subsidies by the United States under the
subpoena spineless Barack Obama and
every politician pretty well in the
United States yields to the Jewish
pressure groups and that's why they dint
do anything about it even if they wanted
to do something about it the European
Union is inactive the British government
is inactive the Prime Minister David
Cameron described the Gaza Strip as a
prison camp but he so happened that he
said that when he was visiting a Muslim
country to Turkey and wanting to
ingratiate himself with his hosts
hardly anything is done which is why
lots of people including me take part in
boycotts but the boycotts while
important are insufficiently effective
what we need and what I press for and
we'll go on pressing for is governments
the United Nations the European Union
the United States our own country to
impose economic sanctions so that the
Israelis can feel what international
opinion meal means there's no point in
condemning them there's certainly no
point in appealing to their better
nature because they don't have a better
nation you've got to make them suffer
because that's the only way they will
feel anything and economic sanctions
would erode this huge first world
standard of living which they enjoy on
borrowed money what you described
earlier was an apartheid system I'm one
of the few people on the Left who was
ever in apartheid South Africa was there
underground for the African National
Congress and the situation you described
of the settlers living in great comfort
was the indigenous owners of the land
live in utter misery apartheid was
broken between the hammer of the
struggle of the African people and the
anvil of international solidarity
including sanctions and boycott do you
think that such a move is going to have
an effect and if so when I - when I was
shadow foreign secretary visited South
Africa under apartheid as the guest of
the South African Council of Churches
and I was followed everywhere by South
African secret police that that is a
huge difference between the apartheid
that the Israelis are inflicting on the
Palestinians and the loathsome an odious
that existed in South Africa there were
distances considerable differences
between Johannesburg Cape Town Durban
and the South African the African
townships in Palestine it's minutes
minutes between the settlements or
between Israel behind the 67 borders and
the hell that they've created in Gaza
and on the West Bank
so it's worse it's worse even than the
foul actions of the South African
apartheid government you've got to make
these people feel it I'm not optimistic
but I'm realistic nobody ever expected
the Soviet Union to collapse in the way
that it did but it happened nobody ever
expected apartheid in South Africa to
collapse in the way that he did but it
happened
the Israelis are stupid to imagine that
just because they've got the fourth
largest arms forces in the world they
can go on like this
I learned Greek at school and there was
there's a phrase and the historian you
through Citadis which says hunter-reay
and that means everything flows the
Israelis are barmy complacent and
self-defeating to imagine that they can
go on forever as they're going now so
Joe Kaufman a privilege to talk to you
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now it's your turn to tell us what you
think in the social media review gantry
what's rattling well everyone on Twitter
supported of course was Sir general
Kaufman's was speaking out for in a
parliament last week
Lucien Quincy Senna said it's been a
long time coming for sanctions against
Israel whether we'll ever happen in our
lifetime is another matter
well I don't know I think it's an idea
whose time has come and one I'm not sure
I may be a skeptic Ashurst because as
mr. Hoffman said it's not about the
people the public opinion but the
government that needs to bring forth
this sanctions yes but as Gerald said
fearlessly in Greek everything flows
that's right Suntory Pope says hitting
the Israelis in their pockets with
sanctions is the best way and that's all
for this week which alas means that's
the end of the show you know where to
reach us on twitter at RT underscores
put Nick and on Facebook you can find us
on Sputnik on Russia today it's goodbye
for me Gayatri and for me George
Galloway it's been marvelous
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